Classic 57 (& HOTCH) VS Classic 57 (& HOTCH) ...

[BGood]

Is it possible that two identical sets, one year apart in the same model guitar, same electronics, sound completely different. They are adjusted at same height (measured). One is clear and jangly the other muddy, on bridge AND neck.

One has brand new strings, the other ... about a month old, not played that much. That can't be that, can it ?

The one I want to keep has the bleh pups in it, the one I want to sell have the good ones. If they could have been built different, I'll switch them from one guitar to the other, but I would like not to have to do that.

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[Davis Sharp]

Yes, it's possible. Suppliers and QC may have changed.

It's probably easier to put the nice pups in the favored guitar. But if they then become muddy, it's due to the color of the switch tip.

Maybe just change the switch tips to start.

 

[Steven Howes]

as a quck ckeck that doens't involve modifications, whats the caps? are they the same?

 

[BGood]

as a quck ckeck that doens't involve modifications, whats the caps? are they the same?

Thanks for the advice. First thing I checked, 0.022 on both.
But don't capacitors act only when the tone knob is turned down. When it's on 10, they all sound the same, don't they ?

 

[Steven Howes]

that's what I always thought, just with the muddy tone I thought maybe the treble was going to ground. Does it get even muddier when you use the tone knob?

 

[DHart]

Beautiful SGs!

Are you certain that the electronics are exactly the same?

Good chance the volume pots are of significantly different values. The brighter guitar probably has 500k and the darker one may have something like 250k? Could be 250k volume and tone pots in the darker one.

You need to measure the values of the pots, as what is stamped on the pot casing can be wildly off - and almost always lower than stated value.

Also, different bodies DO influence the sound of pickups. A perfect way to hear this is to take the same pickup and move it from one guitar (of the same type) to another of the same type - and cognizant of whatever differences there may be in electronics.

I took a Twang King neck pickup and moved it among three different Tele bodies - it sounded VERY dark in one body, noticeably brighter in the next, and VERY bright in the third. Same pickup! And not the result of different electronics. Each guitar imparted its own qualities on the tone of the pickup - as a result of wood types, densities, neck material, bridge materials, etc.

Try switching the neck pickups and see what the result is.

If it were me, I'd just make a new wiring harness with carefully chosen pots for the dark sounding guitar. And probably put a set of Dimarzio PAF Masters in it - that would result in a wonderfully sparkly bright tone in the SG.

 

[Raiyn]

But don't capacitors act only when the tone knob is turned down. When it's on 10, they all sound the same, don't they?

Mostly. Unless you've got a no-load pot in there, you've still got a smidge of tone circuit in there which can be affected by variations in the tone pot and / or cap. (My money is on the Alpha pots)
It really shouldn't be "muddy" if all else is the same, but who knows what the actual values are in the circuit.

 

[BGood]

Does it get even muddier when you use the tone knob?

Yep

Beautiful SGs!

Are you certain that the electronics are exactly the same?

Good chance the volume pots are of significantly different values. The brighter guitar probably has 500k and the darker one may have something like 250k? Could be 250k volume and tone pots in the darker one.

You need to measure the values of the pots, as what is stamped on the pot casing can be wildly off - and almost always lower than stated value.

Yeah same on both, 500K for volume 250K for tone.

Don't think I can test pots with this guy, can I ?

Also, different bodies DO influence the sound of pickups. A perfect way to hear this is to take the same pickup and move it from one guitar (of the same type) to another of the same type - and cognizant of whatever differences there may be in electronics.

What I'm going to do ...

If they could have been built different, I'll switch them from one guitar to the other, but I would like not to have to do that.

Each guitar imparted its own qualities on the tone of the pickup - as a result of wood types, densities, neck material, bridge materials, etc.

I don't believe in tonewood on electrics, but I might have to rethink that. The second one is the muddy SG.

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[Raiyn]

250K for tone.

Whaa? It's been a while since I had stock electronics in anything, but that can't be right.

 

[BGood]

Whaa? It's been a while since I had stock electronics in anything, but that can't be right.

Sorry ... 500k everywhere.

 

[DHart]

Sorry ... 500k everywhere.

Just because it says 500 on the pot case doesn't mean that it is 500k. They vary all over the map. Could be as low as 400k. I've only tested pots before installing, I'm not sure how you might test them once they're wired into the guitar - but there could be a way?

It would be well-worth sorting out if you want to keep the dark/muddy SG, but wish it sounded like the bright, clear one! Switch the guts & pickups between the two - out have someone do that for you - and see how it turns out.

Each guitar definitely imparts its own tonal qualities on the pickups that are installed in it - you might swap pickups and electronics only to find that the dark guitar still sounds dark. Only one way to find out.

I have a dozen Teles. One of them(alder body, rosewood board) just happens to be MUCH darker than the others with alder/rosewood - dramatically so. I have compensated for that by installing bright (low wind) pickups and bumping the volume pot to 1M (nominal) which actually tests out around 880k, IIRC. And going with a No-Load tone pot. End result sounds great, not dark at all.

 

[Norton]

I know you don’t believe in tonewood. But roger sadowsky who has built thousands of high end guitars says that 75% plus of any guitar’s voice etc. comes from the neck. He also says that the fretboard has more effect on a guitar’s voice than the body material.

He’s got WAY more experience at this than I do. Anecdotal reports when the stack up by the thousands start to show some statistical relevance.

Just a thought. Two identical guitars. Other than the actual wood. Where should we start looking? Certainly not at the wood.

No. We’ve already started with a conclusion that rules that variable out.

 

[Davis Sharp]

Don't think I can test pots with this guy, can I ?

Not while they're soldered to other stuff. If they're not, touch the probes to an outside and a middle lug (doesn't matter which outside) with the dial wide open.

 

[BGood]

Thanks everybody.
I'll switch the innards and see what happens ... or not.

In the meanwhile ...
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[Raiyn]

They vary all over the map. Could be as low as 400k

This is why I buy ±5% or tighter components whenever possible and measure them before installation.

 

[DHart]

This is why I buy ±5% or tighter components whenever possible and measure them before installation.

I usually buy from The Art of Tone. TAOT. They custom order their CTS pots with TAOT stamped on the pot case. I buy his 550k +/- 5% pots in sets of 4.

The last two sets I bought were: 1 set ALL were dead on at 540k. The other set, ALL were dead on at 530k. He orders them special from CTS and he tests them before packaging, and I test them when I receive them. Good stuff!

In my view, ordering pots any other way is a ridiculous crap shoot. You can never rely on what they're going to wind up being - essentially all over the map.

 

[Steven Howes]

Thanks everybody.
I'll switch the innards and see what happens ... or not.

In the meanwhile ...
View attachment 10768​

I can totally see why you want to keep the bottom one...

 

[Norton]

Anyone know What’s the translation is from a pot’s resistance to audible (3db) perceptible shift?

I’d guess it would be nearly impossible to hear A 5% tolerance difference in a pot. I’d expect 10% or more would be audible.

 

[Norton]

The guitar’s all look good. I vote for keeping them all.

 

[Raiyn]

I usually buy from The Art of Tone. TAOT. They custom order their CTS pots with TAOT stamped on the pot case. I buy his 550k +/- 5% pots in sets of 4.

You mean his 525K ±5% pots right? I've bought from Art Of Tone several times and he has 525k ± 5% pots (read 500-550K). I used them in my G400 build and the set I got was 530,521, and a pair of 509's. (NV,BV,& 2T).

He orders them special from CTS and he tests them before packaging, and I test them when I receive them. Good stuff!

Yup, same here, helps me decide who goes where.

In my view, ordering pots any other way is a ridiculous crap shoot. You can never rely on what they're going to wind up being - essentially all over the map.

I'm the same way about my caps. ±5% of stated value or tighter. I don't have any faith in the "mojo" argument when it comes to caps. I have preferences based on what's been easiest to work with - usually axial leads are best for me.