What’s wrong with Epiphone and some online retailers?

[Paruwi]

I never - repeat NEVER - saw any brand new guitar with a correct setup. It's just impossible,

So I guess you've never bought a FGN

 

[soulman969]

Wow, that is some kinda detailed work there brother.

 

[soulman969]

So I guess you've never bought a FGN
View attachment 20452

Oh stop it now......

 

[JoeDirt66]

So are we expecting these guitars to come from the factory completely and perfectly setup?
My recent Epiphone LP Classic was and I was really pleasantly surprised especially since:
1) I bought online, not in person
2) It IS only an Epiphone after all

I also recently bought a new Fender Strat (no, not Squier) direct from Fender and the setup (for lack of a better word) was AWFUL.
I mean it was AWFUL. I had to remove the neck and clean the neck pocket, properly set the floating trem, adjust the action, etc.

And in either case it didn't matter because I'm ALWAYS going to adjust everything anyway.
I have never had a thought of pulling it it of the box and Bam! there it goes straight into rotation because some guy at the local SSounds Guitarists Friend Center set it up for me...not even close.

No matter where I get it I'm doing my own setup all the way and thats part of the total experience.
Every guitarist should be able to do a competent setup, I can't believe people pay for that, but that's another topic...
If you get a dud, and I have, by all means, you have a case.
But complaining about having to do a setup? I don't get it.

 

[Dennie]

So are we expecting these guitars to come from the factory completely and perfectly setup?
My recent Epiphone LP Classic was and I was really pleasantly surprised especially since:
1) I bought online, not in person
2) It IS only an Epiphone after all

I also recently bought a new Fender Strat (no, not Squier) direct from Fender and the setup (for lack of a better word) was AWFUL.
I mean it was AWFUL. I had to remove the neck and clean the neck pocket, properly set the floating trem, adjust the action, etc.

And in either case it didn't matter because I'm ALWAYS going to adjust everything anyway.
I have never had a thought of pulling it it of the box and Bam! there it goes straight into rotation because some guy at the local SSounds Guitarists Friend Center set it up for me...not even close.

No matter where I get it I'm doing my own setup all the way and thats part of the total experience.
Every guitarist should be able to do a competent setup, I can't believe people pay for that, but that's another topic...
If you get a dud, and I have, by all means, you have a case.
But complaining about having to do a setup? I don't get it.

Perhaps you should read the original post a little closer?

 

[Dennie]

You sound very convinced that guitars should roll off the assembly line perfect. It just isn't so, not even for a Gibson.

I've bought 3 Epiphone Les Pauls, a Les Paul Special, a Casino, and a Riviera over the last 2 years. None of them had any real trouble. I quickly swapped strings,, set them all up myself, cleaned all the grime off the fret boards, and haven't had a problem since. No sharp frets, no nut work needed other than removing burs. Out of those 6 guitars the only problem that exists is the Casino switch is sloppy and will rattle in middle position. I'll replace it eventually.

Maybe you're just unlucky.

I do wish shops near me would set up guitars as they come in. I tried supporting them but they don't bother making their instruments work well, especially used ones. I've literally seen used guitars missing strings at local shops for sale "as is". If local shops had good selection and took some level of care of guitars I'd never buy online.

You sound very convinced that guitars should roll off the assembly line perfect. It just isn't so, not even for a Gibson.

I've bought 3 Epiphone Les Pauls, a Les Paul Special, a Casino, and a Riviera over the last 2 years. None of them had any real trouble. I quickly swapped strings,, set them all up myself, cleaned all the grime off the fret boards, and haven't had a problem since. No sharp frets, no nut work needed other than removing burs. Out of those 6 guitars the only problem that exists is the Casino switch is sloppy and will rattle in middle position. I'll replace it eventually.

Maybe you're just unlucky.

I do wish shops near me would set up guitars as they come in. I tried supporting them but they don't bother making their instruments work well, especially used ones. I've literally seen used guitars missing strings at local shops for sale "as is". If local shops had good selection and took some level of care of guitars I'd never buy online.

Perfection?
No sir, Didn’t say that, never said that.

 

[Dennie]

It is not a GIbson and it is not Gibson prices, so ...

Agreed, they are not a Gibson, I mentioned that.

 

[JoeDirt66]

Perhaps you should read the original post a little closer?

Ok, I read it again. Thank you.

 

[Dennie]

I do know who actually does the QC on Gibsons sold in Japan.....

and this might be the reason why there are opinions that Gibsons sold in Japan are of better Quality

View attachment 20450

I’ve never had a problem so far with any guitar I’ve purchased from Japan.

 

[Dennie]

Ok, I read it again. Thank you.

I never said anything about expecting perfection and that isn’t found anywhere in the original post.
Also not talking about a tailored setup suited to the individual player, also mentioned in the post.
I appreciate your comments and opinion.

 

[Dennie]

I agree with most of what you're saying and I think you're right - it just boils down to the price point. That being said, it also varies with markets.

Here in Japan, Epiphones go through a second line of QC before they hit stores (my guess is because they're trying to re-establish themselves in the market). While I personally don't think it's helped a whole lot in terms of the brand image (but in certain circumstances some models have sold like hotcakes), at least most Epiphones off the shelf these days seem to play a bit better. Basically its what you're suggesting - similar to the PRS SE treatment (at least for the States). Note that PRS SEs don't get an analogous treatment when shipped to other markets - they only get the equivalent of the Sweetwater thing. The official tag line is: "every SE guitar sold in the US first comes to our Maryland factory for a strict quality inspection and set up. European-sold SE guitars are set up and inspected by PRS Europe and other SE guitars sold to the world are set up and inspected by our trusted network of PRS distributers." So if you live in a country with a shitty distributor, you're SOL (luckily here we have PRS Japan which is also quite good - but during my travels around Asia, I've seen some less than stellar ones). But then again, it goes back to the price point thing and you can only expect so much. Ironically, Epiphone seems to have one of the shittiest distributors ever in the States lol (Gibson).

I think a lot of what you're experiencing in terms of online reviews though, is the fact that there the people that are unwilling to pay $2k for owning a Gibson finding Epiphone as a more than satisfactory alternative (BTW, let's just stick with the USA line. $5k is CS - if you're paying CS price and not getting CS quality, and still pay for it and want to be happy with it, that's all on the buyer lol). They're not the same, and the QC steps are definitely different - Gibsons come plek'd whereas Epiphones can usually use a good fret polish and in some cases a quick reseating or even some minor spot leveling. But money's a real thing. A properly setup Epi, maybe with some mods, do give people that satisfaction that it can perform to the level of an expensive instrument - and people who experience that are generally more vocal than people who drop $2k for a Gibson.

I have more Gibsons and ESPs than I have Epis. But, I seldom have any desire to go on a forum to talk about those. It's like. okay. I paid $2-5k for a guitar. It damn well be good (or else I'd just feel like a fool for paying that amount). There's just not much to discuss because they've set the standard - for Epis thoguh, there's always that aspirational thing and the comparative aspect. When people can fix up an Epi and play it like they're enjoying a $2k guitar, that's actually a pretty cool thing.

“ I have more Gibsons and ESPs than I have Epis. But, I seldom have any desire to go on a forum to talk about those.”

I agree probably a waste of time that I could be using to file the nut.

 

[Noodling Guitars]

“ I have more Gibsons and ESPs than I have Epis. But, I seldom have any desire to go on a forum to talk about those.”

I agree probably a waste of time that I could be using to file the nut.

Exactly, I kinda like the tinkering side of things and working on guitars.

 

[Dennie]

What’s wrong with Epiphone and some of our major online retailers?
I see lots of online hype regarding the Epiphone Les Paul enspired by Gibson line.

There’s lots of comparison reviews like; “Are they as good as a Gibson?” Etc.

Many online retailers post mostly 5 star reviews with little to say objectively that can help one decide to buy or not.

The only advantage of buying online versus a local shop are convenience, selection and payment options. So buying online makes honest critical reviews indispensable when purchasing sight unseen instruments but we aren’t getting much of that.
Most local shops that I patronize do a basic setup before their instruments go out the door. Mostly because if a guitar doesn’t play nice or sound good it doesn’t get sold.

In many cases these local shops do it while you wait. They check and more importantly “set” the string height and dial in the intonation on electrics and “set” the proper neck relief. Of course you also get to try out the exact instrument you are considering a purchase on so you get to see immediately what the problems are if any that might exist before you buy.
You get none of that with an online purchase unless you pay extra.

I get it.
We buy these guitars because we don’t want to spend $5K and up for the real thing or need a beater so we don’t loose or damage a more expensive guitar out giging. Some have other reasons, those are mine.
When you buy one of these you have to understand what they are and what they are not. If you’re a beginner and don’t know the difference you most likely will be happy with this instrument but they are nothing close to the more expensive comparable models they are patterned after except for in the looks department. In that respect Epiphone did a good job in copying the original.

In the last month I purchased two inspired by Gibson Epiphone Les Pauls and not much has changed from the first one.

First one I purchased was a smokehouse standard 60s and then a black custom.
I own several other Epiphones along with 20 other guitars.
What I discovered in these last two Epi’s is that a basic Epiphone factory setup appears to be virtually nonexistent on these guitars.
Overall the guitars look nice but the playability just isn’t there.

The old saying “you get what you pay for” is never more true than in this instance but for the money I would expect more from Epiphone.
These guitars do have fairly good bones to start with but it takes considerable effort to make the guitar play like it should. These two guitars had sharp fret ends and both nuts that were cut too high. The strings that come with the guitar are also complete junk. Most say that’s just to be expected so add an additional $15 for strings before you play. The strings they it came with had nicks and gouges underneath like they had been played a lot.

I spent a several of hours cleaning up and polishing all the sharp fret ends, adjusted string height and intonation and that helped some.

The nut still needs to be cut lower and I’ll do that in the next few days when I get the time.

In addition several of the tuning machines seem to have considerably slack in them so I’ll need to change those out.

The good;
There wasn’t any fret buzz so it is basically a “playable” guitar out of the box. Playable but not real good like it should.

The finish is good and the guitar overall looks nice. Only blemish “QC/QA” issue in its construction is at the bottom of the guitars where the neck meets the body. There’s a small bulge where the binding wasn’t filed/smoothed down properly but it isn’t too noticeable.

The electronics are good except for the pickup switch. The sound is also very good coming out of the guitar as the pickups are surprisingly great!

Overall the Les Paul Gibsons I have owned were very slick smooth playing instruments critically setup from the factory before they were shipped. The Epiphone doesn’t have that and doesn’t feel like that. It’s just not the polished ready to play guitar like it’s more expensive big brother and that’s probably to be expected given the difference in price.

If you can live with that and don’t mind paying extra for a “complete” setup and you don’t have $5k for a Gibson then you should be generally happy with this guitar.
But understand that a full and complete setup isn’t really optional, it’s a must so be prepared to pay extra for that if you can’t do it yourself.

Unless the setup was much better, for another 4-5 hundred bucks you can get a lower end Gibson or something more comparable that I think overall would be a much better investment.

I will probably never buy another Les Paul by Epiphone inspired by Gibson.
The main problem is a lack of a basic setup to standard specifications from the factory and if they show up wrong or out of spec at the retailer they should be fixed but in many cases this doesn’t happen. Most local shops take care of that.

We are not talking about a tailored setup here just a factory spec check/setup.
As you know there are standard baseline measurable specs for pickup height, string height, neck relief, nut height, sharp frets etc.
Those standard factory specs should already be set in the guitar and they are not at least on the two I just bought as well as on others I have purchased from a certain online retailer.

Here is what I “think” could be happening in these cases;

Epiphone sets the guitar up to specs and ships it out, those specs in the guitar “will” change by the time the guitar gets to the states because of climate/humidity changes especially where sharp frets show up.
As the green wood/neck starts to move and shrink slightly due to these changes the metal frets do not move. This results in sharp fret ends on the neck.
The point is this;

Epiphone may have and probably did set them up to specs but when they arrive in the states they are now a somewhat different guitar because of the change in climate and that’s normal and to be expected. As a result some will have sharp fret ends, some without neck relief etc etc.

When that happens they should fix it back to proper specs before it is shipped out to the customer but that isn’t happening.

 

[syco]

What’s wrong with Epiphone and some of our major online retailers?
I see lots of online hype regarding the Epiphone Les Paul enspired by Gibson line.

There’s lots of comparison reviews like; “Are they as good as a Gibson?” Etc.

Many online retailers post mostly 5 star reviews with little to say objectively that can help one decide to buy or not.

The only advantage of buying online versus a local shop are convenience, selection and payment options. So buying online makes honest critical reviews indispensable when purchasing sight unseen instruments but we aren’t getting much of that.
Most local shops that I patronize do a basic setup before their instruments go out the door. Mostly because if a guitar doesn’t play nice or sound good it doesn’t get sold.

In many cases these local shops do it while you wait. They check and more importantly “set” the string height and dial in the intonation on electrics and “set” the proper neck relief. Of course you also get to try out the exact instrument you are considering a purchase on so you get to see immediately what the problems are if any that might exist before you buy.
You get none of that with an online purchase unless you pay extra.

I get it.
We buy these guitars because we don’t want to spend $5K and up for the real thing or need a beater so we don’t loose or damage a more expensive guitar out giging. Some have other reasons, those are mine.
When you buy one of these you have to understand what they are and what they are not. If you’re a beginner and don’t know the difference you most likely will be happy with this instrument but they are nothing close to the more expensive comparable models they are patterned after except for in the looks department. In that respect Epiphone did a good job in copying the original.

In the last month I purchased two inspired by Gibson Epiphone Les Pauls and not much has changed from the first one.

First one I purchased was a smokehouse standard 60s and then a black custom.
I own several other Epiphones along with 20 other guitars.
What I discovered in these last two Epi’s is that a basic Epiphone factory setup appears to be virtually nonexistent on these guitars.
Overall the guitars look nice but the playability just isn’t there.

The old saying “you get what you pay for” is never more true than in this instance but for the money I would expect more from Epiphone.
These guitars do have fairly good bones to start with but it takes considerable effort to make the guitar play like it should. These two guitars had sharp fret ends and both nuts that were cut too high. The strings that come with the guitar are also complete junk. Most say that’s just to be expected so add an additional $15 for strings before you play. The strings they it came with had nicks and gouges underneath like they had been played a lot.

I spent a several of hours cleaning up and polishing all the sharp fret ends, adjusted string height and intonation and that helped some.

The nut still needs to be cut lower and I’ll do that in the next few days when I get the time.

In addition several of the tuning machines seem to have considerably slack in them so I’ll need to change those out.

The good;
There wasn’t any fret buzz so it is basically a “playable” guitar out of the box. Playable but not real good like it should.

The finish is good and the guitar overall looks nice. Only blemish “QC/QA” issue in its construction is at the bottom of the guitars where the neck meets the body. There’s a small bulge where the binding wasn’t filed/smoothed down properly but it isn’t too noticeable.

The electronics are good except for the pickup switch. The sound is also very good coming out of the guitar as the pickups are surprisingly great!

Overall the Les Paul Gibsons I have owned were very slick smooth playing instruments critically setup from the factory before they were shipped. The Epiphone doesn’t have that and doesn’t feel like that. It’s just not the polished ready to play guitar like it’s more expensive big brother and that’s probably to be expected given the difference in price.

If you can live with that and don’t mind paying extra for a “complete” setup and you don’t have $5k for a Gibson then you should be generally happy with this guitar.
But understand that a full and complete setup isn’t really optional, it’s a must so be prepared to pay extra for that if you can’t do it yourself.

Unless the setup was much better, for another 4-5 hundred bucks you can get a lower end Gibson or something more comparable that I think overall would be a much better investment.

I will probably never buy another Les Paul by Epiphone inspired by Gibson.
The main problem is a lack of a basic setup to standard specifications from the factory and if they show up wrong or out of spec at the retailer they should be fixed but in many cases this doesn’t happen. Most local shops take care of that.

We are not talking about a tailored setup here just a factory spec check/setup.
As you know there are standard baseline measurable specs for pickup height, string height, neck relief, nut height, sharp frets etc.
Those standard factory specs should already be set in the guitar and they are not at least on the two I just bought as well as on others I have purchased from a certain online retailer.

Here is what I “think” could be happening in these cases;

Epiphone sets the guitar up to specs and ships it out, those specs in the guitar “will” change by the time the guitar gets to the states because of climate/humidity changes especially where sharp frets show up.
As the green wood/neck starts to move and shrink slightly due to these changes the metal frets do not move. This results in sharp fret ends on the neck.
The point is this;

Epiphone may have and probably did set them up to specs but when they arrive in the states they are now a somewhat different guitar because of the change in climate and that’s normal and to be expected. As a result some will have sharp fret ends, some without neck relief etc etc.

When that happens they should fix it back to proper specs before it is shipped out to the customer but that isn’t happening.

Customers !!

 

[Noodling Guitars]

Nice! The dark brown burst one looks great!

 

[soulman969]

Customers !!

To a large degree this is true. It's consumers who've dictated how the marketplace functions by placing price above service. We're the ones who made big box stores possible in all areas of merchandising.

 

[soulman969]

Agreed, they are not a Gibson, I mentioned that.

But that was never Jean's point and you did specifically compare the initial condition of the two Epiphones to previous Gibson's you'd bought and found them wanting as far as initial set up goes.

I believe the point here is both correct and more inline with whether it's fair to compare what Gibson does as far as the "presentation" of a $3000 guitar with an Epiphone costing less than $1000.

You found that you had some work to do on the Epiphone but for their $2000 difference in cost (ballparking here) you were very well paid in doing it just as I was with a half price bass I bought in Sept.

I also believe that if consumers were willing to pay even close to the price of a Gibson cousin Epiphone is more than capable of providing an equivalent guitar in every way to the Gibson.

I also believe that we should keep in mind that Gibson owns and controls Epiphone. I doubt they want too much competition for their higher end models from their sister brand. JMHO

 

[Dennie]

But that was never Jean's point and you did specifically compare the initial condition of the two Epiphones to previous Gibson's you'd bought and found them wanting as far as initial set up goes.

I believe the point here is both correct and more inline with whether it's fair to compare what Gibson does as far as the "presentation" of a $3000 guitar with an Epiphone costing less than $1000.

You found that you had some work to do on the Epiphone but for their $2000 difference in cost (ballparking here) you were very well paid in doing it just as I was with a half price bass I bought in Sept.

I also believe that if consumers were willing to pay even close to the price of a Gibson cousin Epiphone is more than capable of providing an equivalent guitar in every way to the Gibson.

I also believe that we should keep in mind that Gibson owns and controls Epiphone. I doubt they want too much competition for their higher end models from their sister brand. JMHO

“What’s wrong with Epiphone?”
The Epiphone Les Paul inspired by Gibson line “generally” doesn’t match the hype of the numerous YouTube videos and big box reviews comparing them as “just as good as Gibson”, they are not, not even close.
Many look good, sound good but basic playability is not there even at the price point.
They just are not very good guitars for the money better choices are available for a little more money or even the same money.

 

[Darkness]

 

[Noodling Guitars]

THough this is an Epiphone forum, let's not forget this Gibson budget brand: