What’s wrong with Epiphone and some online retailers?

[Dennie]

well I found a brand / factory who get it close to 100%
So it is possible - just not at factories who do 1000 or more guitars a day
with only few long-term employees

I've bought all the 16 guitars from this brand 'unseen' and online, some were used,
some were brand new.
The smaller dealers here actually do a setup and some of the guitars were not much out of tune when they arrived.

Those smaller dealers mostly do a better price than the BIG-retailers

No company or guitar is perfect and of course there are exceptions but I like the way Alvarez generally rechecks then sets the guitars to factory specs again after they arrive from China and Japan. It’s probably more important to do this with acoustics than electrics but should still be done with electric guitars as well.
Here they discuss in this video exactly why that’s important to do due to climate changes and wood movement in the guitar as stated in the original post, something Epiphone doesn’t seem to be doing in a constituent way.


These Epiphone Les Paul’s inspired by Gibson could be great guitars if they would just spend a little more attention to detail in doing the same.

 

[phonepi]

So I guess you've never bought a FGN
View attachment 20452

Certainly ! What do you mean by FGN ?

P

 

[soulman969]

“What’s wrong with Epiphone?”
The Epiphone Les Paul inspired by Gibson line “generally” doesn’t match the hype of the numerous YouTube videos and big box reviews comparing them as “just as good as Gibson”, they are not, not even close.
Many look good, sound good but basic playability is not there even at the price point.
They just are not very good guitars for the money better choices are available for a little more money or even the same money.

I have to disqualify myself on this point based on not owning one so I can neither confirm or deny your impression of one. But I can make a couple of points.

1) Most YouTube videos hype the product they review. To do otherwise might make it more difficult to obtain that product to review to begin with. Personally I prefer those done by players or techs who have actually purchased what they're reviewing and therefore have some "skin in the game".

2) In the retail world of a million players "looks" are a huge selling point and one of the first things Ben from Crimson Guitars touted in his review of that Slash model Epi LP. How many guitars do you think are sold to someone whose actually played what he's buying vs having only seen in online or in a catalog?

And now I'll work on down to saying that their "playability" is purely your own opinion and quite possibly based on higher standards than your average home player whom the majority of buyers are. There's nothing wrong with that except it more than likely puts you in the top 5% of all buyers out there so no one is targeting you as far as playability goes.

IMHO and IME playability is a very personal issue and it represents many factors not just the out of the box setup. You could hand me a Schecter or an Ibanez of impeccable quality and setup and yet a thin shallow neck built for speed and shredding would immediately be rejected on the basis of it's "playability" for me. I would not buy it.

In most cases any guitar free of manufacturing defects or an incredibly poor design can be made playable to the Nth degree. Again, this is what Ben did in his review of that Slash LP. An hour or so of his time turned very good or even great into perfect for him. With all due respect is your time any more valuable than his. Can you not make that Epi LP just as playable for your personal standards as well? You surely can.

Hype is hype. No one is forcing you to buy into it so why does it bother you that some find those guitar to be an excellent value even if you don't? What I'm getting from you is that you want what you believe is Gibson out of the box standards out of Epiphone for the price they charge for their product and in your personal opinion you aren't getting it. My Toyota isn't up to Lexus standards but neither is it's price.

If you want what you believe Gibson offers you should buy a Gibson because it seems to me, and others here as well, that you don't see better value in the Epiphone and it will never satisfy you. JMHO.

 

[soulman969]

No company or guitar is perfect and of course there are exceptions but I like the way Alvarez generally rechecks then sets the guitars to factory specs again after they arrive from China and Japan. It’s probably more important to do this with acoustics than electrics but should still be done with electric guitars as well.
Here they discuss in this video exactly why that’s important to do due to climate changes and wood movement in the guitar as stated in the original post, something Epiphone doesn’t seem to be doing in a constituent way.


These Epiphone Les Paul’s inspired by Gibson could be great guitars if they would just spend a little more attention to detail in doing the same.

OK, let's say that I agree with you since essentially I do. But now their price needs to be increased by an average of 10%-15% to pay for that. How will prospective buyers react to that? Or....Epi/Gibson eats that added labor cost and reduces their own profitability. Either product line you want to talk about it's still Gibson's bottom line we're discussing.

How many guitars does Alvarez sell compared to Gibson and Epiphone? No matter what other brands you might bring to the table this is still gonna end up being that old Hertz vs Avis comparison of Avis tries harder because they're #2 and Hertz is #1. Same deal with comparing Alvarez to Gibson/Epiphone and Gibson sees it that way too.

I can't guarantee a damn thing other than to offer my own unconfirmed opinion that if everyone got what you're asking for out of the box from a high end Epiphone model LP we wouldn't be paying $800-$900 for it we'd be paying $1500-$1600 for it and sales would crater. Right now buyers won't pay that much for any new Epiphone LP.

Ask yourself, would you pay it? Or, would you pay $800 and spend a hour or two of your own time getting it's playability spot on to precisely the way you want it? If you'd actually prefer paying $1500-$1600 you'd better be prepared to buy a ton of Epiphones because the rest of the market will not and Gibson/Epi would stop making them anyway.

It's not so much that I disagree with you as that I realize being 90% as good as a comparable Gibson model is the current Epiphone business plan and Gibson is perfectly fine with that. Epiphone is more than likely a major cash cow for Gibson and one that doesn't not impact their sales and profitability on the sale of their comparable Gibson models.

Business wise they have what they want. A higher volume import line to capture sub $1000 market share and their higher end very profitable "Nothing Is As Good As A Gibson" line for the $2000 and up market with a few bare bones version stuck in there for the $1000-$2000 buyer. It's a vertically constructed product line that's profitable at each level.

Sorry, I know we're talking guitars here but I can't pretend I wasn't an investment analyst and portfolio manager for over 30 years. It leaks out sometimes. What's a guy to do.

 

[Paruwi]

Certainly ! What do you mean by FGN ?

P

FGN (FujiGen) Guitars Japan

FGN Guitars added a brand new Video and another interesting factory tour Fujigen Gakki Factory Tour!! | Drowning in Guitars! Serial# information Format: MYYXXXX M = Month (A=Jan, B=Feb.....) YY= Year XXXX= production# The history of FGN-guitars starts in 1960 they had made a lot...

www.epiphonetalk.com

 

[pontaeri]

TLDR: small shop vs factory, small shop wins (yamaha / yairi). Lots of factors into bad guitars, covid shipping / waiting time, Year @ sea . Also remmeber bias on youtube / reviews / factory can have bad stuff. Not all retailers are the same and big box online may ship from warehouse without opening the box



The post



OP sorry about your experience, but some




Alvarez and Yairi are on another level (that Epi or Gibson) in terms of Q/A closer to FGN like Paruwi mentioned. Others would be Fano Guitars, Gallagher, Yamaha, etc. and also St Louis music is hella (90's kid in me comin out) legit.

And Alvarez / Yairi (as well as Yamaha) have that Japanese approach to craftsman (samurai blades to kitchen cutlery) and quality, remember the Japanese were first to adopting Demming and Total Quality Management and this drives Yamaha (as well as Toyota and Honda). Whilst Epiphone is good, Epi isn't fully living that approach.







One thing is part of the issue is shop dependent. Even Sweetwater, despite its quality and customer service being the gold and silver standard and the gauge . . . Sweetwater has dropped the ball, my bf is into resonators and he's gotten ones with skyscraper action, but the guitar is good overall, another reso he had to send back becaused it buzzed and after set up and troubleshooting it.

Yet the guitarist in my band always gets gibson (and my other friend who's a guitar collector who's set up and inventory would make Joe Bonamassa blush) from Wildwood. Wildwood even has their Gibson rep go through all the weaksauce gibson to send the the best in the bunch. Same with their Fender dealer. His experience is 100% awesome.


But Sweetwater is also the best of the online for getting a good guitar and somewhat of a set up. You roll the dice, but there's a modifier where you get more chances of good rolls.

Most other online (GC which is Musicians Friend, ZZ, Sam Ash, Reverb) you may / may not get a set up or Q/A, and its rolling the dice and its Vegas house rules, baby.




Finally set ups are personal, so you can't go judging on a set up not working because only for a few peeps the factory set ups work (kinda jelly my bf he is ok with factory, whut, but eventually he gets around to setting it up to personal).


Shoot even high end acoustic like 5K USD plus ship their guitars with plastic bridge pins. Why? Cuz most discerning acoustic players swap them out with their personal favorite X mat (material) pins.



Also remember factory guitars are all over the place in quality, including big box factories. Taylor guitars? They used to be really good in 90's when Taylor was running it, but today, their tone of most is meh an the expense . . . Same with Martin.

The diff is places like Fano, are smaller shops and usually employees are into quality, so their average for good vs decent to bad is higher than say a factory cranking out thousands to millions of guitars.


. . . like I can get a handmade MIJ Yamaha at half the price of equivalent Martin, and the guitar is better in terms of quality, set up, and they use actual ebony instead of bakelite (but actually bakelite is pretty good as a fretboard material) but take the good Martins and Yamaha doesn't have that low end and boom in your face like good Martin does.


That's how factory big box manufacturers work. Their best case guitars are iconic, and nothing else is like a Fender Tele or Fender Stratp or Gibson ES / LP / SG when they are


Another factor is COVID, your guitars could have sat a year and a half @ sea (yeah remember Long Beach LBC, all those ships waiting out there). Then transport and to a online guitar retailer's warehouse but what if it was moved to you before it could settle in (assuming the guitar retailer has temp and humidity controlled warehouse). Also could have sat for months (rememeber China had the lockdown for longest) at the sport before sailing . . .






Sometimes factors can play like Gibson and Epi USA sent their top guys/gals to China to show them (the factory) how to build Masterbilt or IBG's the ropes, and supervise, but when they leave, sometimes QA drops a bit.


OR the guys that learned directly from the top luthiers are training the new peeps (after the top guns have left the building) and there are some Q/A.

And could someones not feeling it or bad day etc.





Epiphone is right to command its hype. I have a Epi Dot that my bands guitarist covets (but the shop I got it from did a bang up job setting it up too). I've seen my collector get Epi Lucilles that are near perfect both in q/a and the electronics, and tone. he's got all colors and three ebonies (or ebony's?).

Also I've talked to pwner at my local store (where my dot came from) and he mentioned Epiphone quality was all over the place when they first set up the China operation, and had to gold mine just to get decent to good ones, but recently its been mainly hits and some misses, less mining and returning and more setting up.


About youtube: sometimes the youtubers get the best of the best. I've seen it all the time. Phil McKnight often uses his wife or pal's accounts to order ish7 because if the manufacturer knows its a youtuber, they send amazing examples.

Look at videos, and sometimes comments "yeah YMMV, my experience with this product is less than stellar,"

And some youtubers review things but don't say anything negative. Like all the guitar magazines, they NEVER say anything negative while doing a product review.

My bf followed the tone king for a bit, his older youtube he used to give the good, the bad, and the ugly of any product. But he recently shifted to not including the ugly and glossing over the bad.


About retailer reviews on guitars . . . posting the bad, depends on the retailer, some may weed out bad reviews, especially if their rep asks them to (stares at Gibson) . . . so explains the glowing reviews.

 

[phonepi]

FGN (FujiGen) Guitars Japan

FGN Guitars added a brand new Video and another interesting factory tour Fujigen Gakki Factory Tour!! | Drowning in Guitars! Serial# information Format: MYYXXXX M = Month (A=Jan, B=Feb.....) YY= Year XXXX= production# The history of FGN-guitars starts in 1960 they had made a lot...

www.epiphonetalk.com

View attachment 20473

Ah, I see : Fuji-Gen-Gakki... They made the Ibanez brand, right ? Among others...

AFAIK, they made some Gretsch entry/mid-level solidbody models. My G6119LH from 2008 has been made at the TERADA Factory, specialized in Quatuor instruments and archtops guitars :

P

 

[Paruwi]

They made the Ibanez brand, right ?

Yes, they still produce (the more expensive) Ibanez guitars

 

[Space1999]

I have my setup that I like and the tools and knowledge to make it so.
Honestly, it’s mostly setting the neck, setting the action and checking the intonation and then sanding frets down.

That all started because I bought Epiphones cheaper and so was less afraid to work on those guitars.

5 years later I can get the action on my guitars right at 1 1/2 mm to 1 3/4 mm at the 12th fret on the low E and 1 mm on the same fret on the high E,

It just takes time and experience. After a while you see a pattern in Epi setups out of the factory and so I know what has to be done right out of the gate,

And if I mess anything up, which I haven’t so far (knock on wood), it’s not like I screwed up a $1500 guitar.

Pat

 

[LP_SPC_1_P90]

Nothing wrong with Epiphone guitars, stop beating yourself up over a perceived inferiority complex.

 

[Charles Carter]

Th

Nothing wrong with Epiphone guitars, stop beating yourself up over a perceived inferiority complex.

I agree!
In the relationship I have with my Epiphones I'm the inferior one. They're much better guitars than I am a player.

 

[LP_SPC_1_P90]

Th

I agree!
In the relationship I have with my Epiphones I'm the inferior one. They're much better guitars than I am a player.

Likewise, we all need to stop beating ourselves up for not being on tour or being a session guitarist for a recording studio.

 

[phonepi]

Nothing wrong with Epiphone guitars, stop beating yourself up over a perceived inferiority complex.

Sure ! in my stack/bunch of 24 guitars, I have 3 Epiphones, 1 Gibson, 2squiers and 0 Fenders...

P